Monday, March 15, 2010

Livingstone's Third Post

Before I begin, I would like to say that I will write the word ‘Clark’ one hundred times on a piece of paper for future reference ;-)
My responses will be articulated in the following format:

1. The ET Hypothesis
2. Tools of the Intelligent Designer
3. The Case of Nylonase
4. The Known, The Unknown, And The Known Again
5. Answering Andrew’s Question
6. Amino Acids
7. The Genetic Code
8. Protein Primary Structure And Utility
9. Proteins And Probability
10. In Brief

The ET Hypothesis

Intelligent Design holds that the designer is not known; this is because, while the existence of digital, semantic, linear codes is evidence for intelligent design, such a described evidence cannot indicate whether it was a ‘god’ or some other intelligence.

How then can we say that the designer is God?
The reason we assure others that intelligent design has nothing to do with religion or gods is simply because that is the truth.

The hypothetical alien-engineers could plausibly arise through Darwinian mechanisms on another planet; however, the evidence indicates that biochemical structures and life on earth is designed through intelligence.

Tools Of The Intelligent Designer

My opponent, Theo (yes I’m shortening it =D), states that the intelligent design proponents should postulate some plausible mechanism the designer used to design life on earth.
I propose one of genetic engineering for the design of protein primary structures, and a model of directed enzyme evolution for other biochemical structures.
I will elaborate on the former, but not on the latter unless my opponent wishes me to do so.

In the genetic engineering model, the designer used recombinatorial DNA and cloning techniques which we humans mirror today.
This does leave a trace, and it is called the genetic code. Perhaps this is why the genetic code is one of the strongest arguments for intelligent design.

If there were no genetic code which we could manipulate, then it would be rather hard to find a mechanism the designer may have used.
As it turns out, a model of either genetic engineering or directed evolution answers some questions the Darwinian theory cannot (I will elaborate on this in a later portion of my treatise).

The Case Of Nylonase

I really don’t know what my opponent’s reason was for bringing up the evolution of nylonase.
In the bacterium there are three enzymes, EIII (NylC) EI (NylA), and EII (NylB), which are used to digest nylon; a substitution mutation/point mutation occurred in the carboxylesterase gene which allowed the bacterium to hydrolyze nylon oligomers. The ability was already present; it simply took a point mutation to cause an alteration in the parent enzymes specificity.

The intelligent design camp is not at all surprised at this; merely one mutation was needed to achieve this function. It would be much more of a surprise to the intelligent design proponents if something that took trillions upon trillions of mutations to eventually evolve a novel function.

Nobody is denying mutations; intelligent design is over and was over about 200,000 years ago.

The Known, The Unknown, And The Known Again
I suspect that my opponent believes I am making an anthology of arguments from ignorance; I believe this will turn out to be untrue. I do not believe I am making an argument from ignorance, where we do not know of a Darwinian mechanism for X, therefore ‘an intelligent designer dunnit.’

Let me explain by first defining the intelligent design proposition:

“The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.”

I believe the fallacy in my opponent’s reasoning is the false assumption that we do not postulate any mechanism for the generation of protein structures, etc.

Intelligent design does explain the origin of protein structures better than an undirected process like the Darwinian hypothesis, and I will explain how this can be the case.

While staunch Darwinians have virtually no mechanism for the origin of highly integrated protein structures and functions, the intelligent design proposition does offer a mechanism, and one based on the scientific method.
All observations in the physical world demonstrates that complex biocatalytic functions are only a derivative of intelligence rather than undirected processes.
The mechanism the designer used is directed evolution, rather than the Darwinian mechanism.

The difference between the Darwinian mechanism and the mechanism I postulate (i.e. directed enzyme evolution techniques), are as follows:
1. Darwinism does not work towards any direction, and there is no goal.
2. A directed molecular evolution paradigm, on the other hand, has a defined goal, and processes like mutation, recombination, and selection are controlled by the designer.
Rational design explains the origin of complex enzymatic functions far better than Darwinism, and for this reason Occam’s razor cannot apply to this scenario.

There IS a mechanism for the design of proteins and ezymes, and one that is entirely testable, repeatable, and observable. The only difference is in who the designer is. In today’s world, the designer is humanity. 4.55 billion years ago, the designer could have been an alien agent or some other designer. However, the mechanism remains the same.

So as one can see, while intelligent design offers a very plausible mechanism, the staunch Darwinians are left with nothing observable or repeatable.

Answering Andrew’s Question

Here I will briefly answer the question Andrew presented: whether the ‘other factors’ I mentioned had anything to do with the anthropic principle.

In short, it so happens my training is in biochemistry and not physics, so the other factors I had in mind did not include the anthropic principle, but rather biochemical factors such as topoisomerase evolution or the fact that various papers in scientific literature are questioning the endosymbiotic hypothesis.

Amino Acids

I hold that my argument is an example of this type of reasoning, and not an argument from ignorance: (1) The Darwinian synthesis cannot explain how X could have happened, (2) The intelligent design paradigm can explain a plausible mechanism, (3) Therefore the intelligent design model best explains X.

Again, I propose yet another mechanism for the origin of homochirality, one of RNA-directed amino acid homochirality.

Again, I can elaborate on this in depth if requested to do so.

I would like my opponent to demonstrate one type of chemical reaction which spontaneously produces only one entantiomer.

Theo presents a very interesting process for the origin of homochirality; however, there is an error in this hypothesis.

This hypothetical RNA helix that is ‘swimming’ through this mixture of chemicals and amino acid residues does not select for only one entantiomer. Unless my opponent can provide peer-reviewed literature supporting the claim that RNA can only bind to L amino acids, and not D amino acids, in a free solution, I believe his hypothesis is wrong.
I am not aware that RNA would discriminate one entantiomer from another in a free solution.

The Genetic Code

This is not an argument from ignorance. This is an argument which rests upon experimental verification and observational manifestations; therefore, intelligent design explains the origin of DNA and the central dogma of molecular biology better than the Darwinian synthesis.
In the first place, DNA is obviously a language, or a code as it were. Of course, you might protest that this begs the question, whether DNA is actually a language. However, I think my position is stronger in saying that it is, as DNA follows laws of linguistics such as those postulated by Zipf.
Observation tells us that all languages are a derivative of intelligence; there is no known unintelligent process that will make a language. Therefore, I hold that intelligent design explains the origin of DNA better than Darwinian mechanisms.

RNA may have been a precursor to DNA and fully-functional replicating systems; however, we must wonder how switch gates and logic nodes which are found in the central dogma of molecular biology could evolve, as natural selection would have to select for potential biosystem through selecting at the time of the formation of 3’5’ phosphodiester bonds in RNA and DNA sequences.


Protein Primary Structure And Utility

While exaptation is an interesting hypothesis, there are several errors with it.

The case of nylonase is entirely different than the case of the evolution of EPSP synthase. Only a few mutations were needed to evolve the function of nylonase. However, as in the paper I presented, there would have to be a massive amount of mutations for the evolution of EPSP synthase.
That EPSP synthase had a different function before is largely irrelevant to the discussion; the function is not what matters, it is the (beneficial) functionally-redundant primary structures separating EPSP synthase from shorter protein primary structures.
I am not aware the EPSP synthase’s many molecular functions are vitally important to cellular organisms.

The paper I presented showed that EPSP synthase shorter than 372 aa is functionally redundant; i.e. it is has no beneficial function whatsoever. The burden of proof lies on my opponent to provide evidence that an EPSP synthase shorter than 372 amino acids has any beneficial molecular function at all, as all observable evidence indicates it would have no function.


Proteins And Probability

Clark attempts to refute my argument from probability using two ways, (1) That probability is not entirely relevant as the EPSP synthase is not an end-product or an ultimate goal, and that (2) Natural selection can account for the origin of EPSP synthase and that therefore probability is not affected.

I will first articulate a response to no. 1.

All evidence is based on probability. Indeed, using Clark’s logic, the evidence for evolution would collapse—particularly those such as endogenous retroviruses or the arrangement of the geologic record.
For example, Darwinians claim that the probability of endogenous retroviruses inserting themselves randomly into a host’s genome yet displaying a beautiful evolutionary tree is next to nil.
However, using my opponent’s logic, the probability is not next to nil as there is no goal ‘in mind.’ All evidence is based on probability, whether or not there is a goal to be reached.

Next, my opponent says:
“The point of this, of course, is that if the steps on the way to making a final protein already exist in some forms and provide a selectable advantage, that any calculation which assumes that its evolution must start from scratch are invalid.”

The problem that in papers written by Durston, Abel, and Trevors there are no beneficial primary structures separating EPSP synthase from shorter functional proteins.
I’m not sure I fully comprehend the point my opponent is attempting to expatiate.

In Brief
In brief, intelligent design does not hold that there must exist some ‘god’ to better explain certain biochemical features, but rather merely an intelligent agent.
I believe all the evidence leads one to conclude that intelligent design is a better explanation for the origin and diversification of species.

Livingstone M.

7 comments:

  1. Gosh, what a detailed response!

    Just thought I'd mention something to consider. We know from the evidences that evolution is an adaptive mechanism, a component of the embryogenesis process. It appears to me to be a 'designed in' mechanism to aid in species survival. There is also evidence that adaptive genes (variants) may be available for selection without mutation.

    Regarding origins of new species, modifications by genetic engineering (gene tweaking) is plaus1ble. By whom, one might ask? By surrogates IMO, delegated or by personal choice, but acting within a hierarchy (angelics or spirit entities).

    Entities (likely us included) are of a quantum construct, and operate within bioforms which serve as 'vehicles' for earthly experiences, possibly a sabbatical from the spirit realm. Higher spirit entities, of which we are within a lineage to, have taylored biologic forms for the purpose of extended experiences. Their actions would likely be under the authority of a supreme entity.

    Why, one may ask? And why sin (natural or directed)? These are logical consequences of free will, and the penchant for adventure. It's also possible that 'competetive' intelligences fashioned competetive constructs. Not so different from the Roman arenas which were considered entertainment for men at one time. Wars are another example.

    My only point is that biologic engineering as a creative activity has been ongoing over vast time span, and not necessarily by one entity. And not likely by bioforms themselves, since they are fragile, require a controlled environment, and appear designed for a very limited earthly experience. Freed from those constraints, I predict that cosmic travel is not only plausible, but done routinely. Otherwise, the cosmos are a tremendous waste of real estate.

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  2. Thank you for your comment, Lee.

    While I (of course) agree with almost nothing you wrote, I am glad that someone is following along with what we're doing here, and I hope you have found it to be worth your while.

    Please tell your friends and non-friends to come on over and take a look as well.

    Daniel "Theophage" Clark

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  3. Where shall i start...

    The ET Hypothesis
    1- there might be digital, semantic, etc codes. But the GENETIC code is unique in its dimensional properties. The genetic code is neither semantic, digital, or whatever. It is a group of molecules that when organized in X or Y manner can translate into other proteins. end of.
    2- read what you post... "ET"? seriously...between you writing elfs or extraterrestrial life the validatity of the claim remains exactly the same... methaphysical claim, hence it is the product of purely magic thinking.
    3- the "truth" is when you present evidence for an "ET", until then saying gods, et or whatever baseless unproven "entity" means the same: fantasy claim.
    4- i see no evidence of intelligent designed proteins, except in a lab by modern science. Neverthless random chance would still act upon any kind of future "designed" dna. Random interactions with your "design" would screw any kind of prediction that you would try to make for the rest of your generations.

    Tools Of The Intelligent Designer

    The genetic code has exceptions, there are different nucleotides and ultrastructures possible for a DNA or RNA molecule all around us and there is a growing science of epigenetics proving to us that what surrounds the DNA is as much important as the DNA itself.
    The fact that we KNOW that these structures can change and that there are different nucelotides that can RANDOMLY enter the code screws any kind of "design", or intelligent design.
    saying that the genetic code is evidence for an ID is as saying that hydrogen is example of design... lol

    "darwinian evolution" only appears after the FIRST form appears, so i don't even know where is this "darwinian" model being refuted... if you failed to mention what are the tools for that "directed evolution"...you just mentioned a model of "intelligent design" of a first form.

    The Case Of Nylonase

    The irrationality of your thinking process is astonishing....
    How can a trait that DIDN'T exist before, suddently is claimed by you as "it was there all along". No it wasn't.
    The trait DID NOT exist prior to the RANDOM unintelligent mutation that suddently introduced a NEW trait in the bacteria.
    Example:
    OUSE
    doesn't tell you anything...
    but if you put an M, you get MOUSE
    but if you put an H, you get HOUSE

    a "simple" point mutation does create NEW "meanings" to what WASN'T there before.

    a "merely" one mutation, random and unintelligent destroy all of your ID arguements.
    Because WE ARE looking into a NOVEL function. ffs... the ability WASN'T there before.

    if ID was over more than 2000000 years ago... (let's say the truth: more than a billion years ago) since then we have Evolution.

    The Known, The Unknown, And The Known Again

    Yes you are presenting arguements from ignorance and yes you are not presenting a mechanism.
    The origin of the "first" protein structures is explained by Abiogenesis, not evolution. Since abiogenesis, yes, ALL protein NEW structures are the result of a "darwinian" model.
    The Nylon eating bacteria IS an example of "highly integrated protein structures and functions" (whatever that means...)

    If the ID "camp" think they can present a model based on the scientific method, i am more than curious to read the method they want to use in order to take a picture of those ETs working in a lab billions of years ago...

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  4. the rest of the response its here:

    http://universalcause.blogspot.com/2010/03/response-nr1.html

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  5. So, uh, where is the debate? I'll begin by making a prediction. The ID hypothesis has evolved some, and is still, I feel, misunderstood by many. Even some ID 'theorists'.

    DI's site states, "The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection."

    A more valid theory would exclude 'the universe', since they rely on differing inferences. So my definition would exclude the universe, at least for now.

    Also, "an intelligent cause" could be stated broadened to include more than one 'cause', and over vast time, which correlates with the evidence.

    MDT is not only a possibility, but evidentiary as well, again due DNA (molecular) to varied higher constructs, due to vast time, and due to predator v prey, pathogen/ parasite v host, and other diversities. Of course a single common designer may have had competetiveness in mind, or 'the fall' may hold some validity.

    But motive and theological slants are not empirically testable. So at least for now, design inference are based on axioms that need to be worked out.

    Irreducible Complexity as defined by Behe, or my more expanded definition, which does not state that simpler subset could exist with other functions, but that all intermediate MUST have a survival or reproductive advantage, and MUST (not maybe) become fixed in a population. Properly defined, IC is one of the best design inferences.

    And there is more, but first,

    1) why is ID illogical?
    2) Why does natural selection suffice as explanatory for all life forms?
    3) Could both be operatives? If not, why not?

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  6. It didn't let me preview, so a few corrections:

    MDT is 'Multi Designer Theory'

    "Irreducible Complexity as defined by Behe, or my more expanded definition, which does not state that simpler subsets could 'NOT' exist with other functions ... "

    They could.

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  7. "correlates with the evidence."

    Imaginary evidence is not real evidence.

    "MDT is not only a possibility,"

    No...elves wearing pinky dresses and creating tulipas are not a possibility.

    "due to predator v prey, pathogen/ parasite v host"

    All scientific explanations that not need the ADDITION of the word: "designer" or "designer" in order to say the exact same thing. Occam's razor excludes the need for the imaginary addition of MDT.

    "design inference are based on axioms that need to be worked out."

    That goes against empirical logic, the scientific method and intelectual honesty. You first SEE and then think about it. Imagining elves and then trying to come up with some bullshit story on "how they might exist". is to be intelecual dishonest and doing 0 for good methodology.

    Behe testefied in court that "IC" is a complete and utter scam. There is not one single example in biology that is IComplex. none.

    Surviving and being able to reproduce ARE the advantage. You may be the most superbeing as a baby, if you die before you are able to reproduce, if you don't reproduce at all, or you can't even survive long enough or afte ran environmental change... you did not have an advantageous phenotype. What dtermines the advantage is your phenotype in relation to the environment.
    Therefore... a complete average intermediate had more fitness than a superintermediate that couldn't reproduce.

    Properly defined, IC remains one of the most retarded propositions i've ever heard... that's why it is the joke of anyone with anything higher than basic highschool education. end of.

    1) ID is illogic al because the supernatural is methaphysical, to cap it: does not exist, is not real and is the product of human imagination.
    2) it doesn't. What does is: THE MODERN THEORY OF EVOLUTION. but sheer ignorance and uneducation from some still can't still figure out why NS is PART OF evolution.
    3) no sense at all...

    Behe is a quack. he is a joke at the moment. The FACT that he had to court and admit his quackery should be an example to all of the creationists.

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